Difference between revisions of "Third Party Anarchy"

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your permission has been granted, then to listeners the voice is heard
 
your permission has been granted, then to listeners the voice is heard
 
in a vacuum and the call does not match the voice.
 
in a vacuum and the call does not match the voice.
 +
 +
"Who's that?  Doesn't sound like Joe!"
  
 
Maybe you don't care, but if my fellow hams hear my call sign used in
 
Maybe you don't care, but if my fellow hams hear my call sign used in
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"This is [call] with third party traffic." was advised.
 
"This is [call] with third party traffic." was advised.
  
Furthermore, I personally don't want the 3rd party using my call in the
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In this case, Joe should have spoken first, especially if he and the 3rd party intended on using a local repeater.  At the very minimum Joe could have wisely said, "This is Joe [Joe's call sign] with 3rd party traffic" and then handed the microphone to the child.  Or he could have even said a bit more explaining that he was going to let a non-licensed person use the radio as part of an introduction to ham radio, a kindness that I encourage every ham to do.
first person.  On this point I strongly recommend that other operators
+
 
 +
Now the child is talking and we are coming up on the ten minute mark.  Should the child say Joe's call sign as if it were his own?
 +
 
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I personally don't want a 3rd party using my call in the first person. I suggest the guest operator say, "This is [name of the person actually talking] and my controls station is [Joe's call sign.] On this point I strongly recommend that other operators
 
consider this as good practice as well is common sense.
 
consider this as good practice as well is common sense.
  
 
"My control station is [call]."
 
"My control station is [call]."
  
That is for my protection.  With a club call as is the case with a ham radio club call sign then it would not matter if it was used by the non-licensed in the first person as long as a licensed ham is present.  However, it should still me announced ahead of time by the station control operator that 3rd party traffic will occur.
+
That is for my protection.  With a club call as is the case with a ham radio club or youth outreach organization then it would not matter if it was used by the non-licensed in the first person as long as a licensed ham is present.  However, it should still be announced ahead of time by the station control operator that 3rd party traffic will occur.
  
 
1. Control operator announces there is 3rd party traffic to follow, be
 
1. Control operator announces there is 3rd party traffic to follow, be
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afternoon.
 
afternoon.
  
Now you have proven and established you are in control of your station.
+
Now you have proven and established that you are in control of your, club, or special event station.
  
2. The 3rd party then can use KN0BSA directly.  However, if at a
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2. The 3rd party then can use the call sign directly.  However, if at a private station, the 3rd party should probably use the control operator's call sign in a 3rd party form, not in the first person.   
private station, the 3rd party should probably use the control
+
operator's call sign in a 3rd party form, not in the first person.   
+
  
Now you have made listeners aware that your call sign will only be used
+
3. All established regulatory procedures apply including the requirement to provide the call sign identification a minimum of every ten minutes.
 +
 
 +
As an individual you have now made listeners aware that your call sign will only be used
 
in the first person by you, and any other voice is thereby suspicious.
 
in the first person by you, and any other voice is thereby suspicious.
 
After all, someone may have turned their radio on after the 3rd party
 
After all, someone may have turned their radio on after the 3rd party
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Any freebander with a police scanner will know if you let others use
 
Any freebander with a police scanner will know if you let others use
your call sign in the first person willy nilly without you saying a
+
your individual call sign in the first person willy nilly without you saying a
 
word (such as Joe Schmoe did) and they will take note as your call sign is
 
word (such as Joe Schmoe did) and they will take note as your call sign is
 
now one they can barrow and use when they feel like going on air.  It
 
now one they can barrow and use when they feel like going on air.  It
happens, and quite often more than you realize mostly on the HF bands and IRLP.
+
happens, and quite often more than you realize, mostly on the HF bands and IRLP.
  
 
Consider when little Jonny goes home and plays radio saying he is [Joe's call sign,]
 
Consider when little Jonny goes home and plays radio saying he is [Joe's call sign,]
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That is simply not an intelligent thing to be identified with as an
 
That is simply not an intelligent thing to be identified with as an
operator characteristic.
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operator characteristic. Now everyone's guard is down and you have declared open season on your own call sign!
 +
 
 +
Amateur Radio is by and large a self regulated hobby, and your local ham radio neighbors can be your best friends in looking out for you and alerting you if someone is using your ham radio call sign without your knowledge, but only if you don't set a precedent to the contrary!
 +
 
  
Now everyone's guard is down and you have declared open season on your own call sign!
 
  
 
You should be interested in protecting your license and call sign the
 
You should be interested in protecting your license and call sign the
 
same as you would be your financial identity such as your SSN. But if
 
same as you would be your financial identity such as your SSN. But if
you're not, then consider other people you put at risk.  If you are on a repeater, you might expose the repeater owner, trustee, and possibly a ham radio club liability.
+
you're not, then consider other people you put at risk.  If you are on a repeater, you might expose the repeater owner, trustee, and possibly a ham radio club to liability.
  
If you feel it is perfectly compliant and acceptable practice to let non-licensed persons use your callsign in the first person, without you saying anything, you're probably deficient in plenty of other operating practices that will eventually catch up with you and your license.  But please think about others that you might drag into the murky waters of lid operation with you and the collateral damage it may cause.
+
If you feel it is perfectly compliant and acceptable practice to let non-licensed persons use your callsign in the first person, without you saying anything, you're probably deficient in plenty of other operating practices that will eventually catch up with you and your license.  But please think about others that you might drag into the murky waters of lid operation with you and the collateral damage it may cause, possibly including a new generation of lid operators that you failed to set a good example for.

Revision as of 22:16, 11 January 2019

So Joe Schmoe Super Ham says to me, “I talked to so and so with the ARRL and he says I can let kids talk on my radio using my callsign as if it were theirs, and I don’t have to say anything, so nah nah nah.”

Well, my research and casual correspondence with the local Section Manager suggests that it would not be wise, and may result in a violation. But say for the sake of argument that all of the FCC attorney’s in the world decided one day that it was perfectly legal, meanwhile Ruth Bader Ginsburg was taking a nap, lets think about the logic behind such an operation.

So Joe Schmoe let a child use his station and talk on the local repeater. This is commonly known as third-party traffic in ham radio and when done properly there is no infraction. However, Joe himself never spoke up, and the child used Joe's call sign as though it were his own.

Is it legal? There seems to be some conflicting answers depending on who you ask in the ARRL.

Is it wise? Emphatically NO.

So, was Joe present? Well we know he was because I said so above! Don't you believe me? Actually, only Joe and the kid really knew, because no one else listening could have known. Joe never said, "Third party traffic to follow" and the kid used Joe's call in the first person.

Once you have granted non-hams permission to use your call sign in the FIRST PERSON, then observers (those listening) hear a voice that is _not_ yours, and a call sign that _is_ yours. When you don't announce your permission has been granted, then to listeners the voice is heard in a vacuum and the call does not match the voice.

"Who's that? Doesn't sound like Joe!"

Maybe you don't care, but if my fellow hams hear my call sign used in the first person from a voice other than my own, and not preceded by nor followed by any warning or advisement that it is 3rd party with permission granted, I want to know, because someone is using my call w/o my permission. I would never do that. I always announce that I am about to allow a 3rd party to speak from my station!

After some instances in the past of non-licensed people using real ham radio calls without the licensed operator knowing about it, there were discussions and recommendations made to help mitigate the problem.

"This is [call] with third party traffic." was advised.

In this case, Joe should have spoken first, especially if he and the 3rd party intended on using a local repeater. At the very minimum Joe could have wisely said, "This is Joe [Joe's call sign] with 3rd party traffic" and then handed the microphone to the child. Or he could have even said a bit more explaining that he was going to let a non-licensed person use the radio as part of an introduction to ham radio, a kindness that I encourage every ham to do.

Now the child is talking and we are coming up on the ten minute mark. Should the child say Joe's call sign as if it were his own?

I personally don't want a 3rd party using my call in the first person. I suggest the guest operator say, "This is [name of the person actually talking] and my controls station is [Joe's call sign.] On this point I strongly recommend that other operators consider this as good practice as well is common sense.

"My control station is [call]."

That is for my protection. With a club call as is the case with a ham radio club or youth outreach organization then it would not matter if it was used by the non-licensed in the first person as long as a licensed ham is present. However, it should still be announced ahead of time by the station control operator that 3rd party traffic will occur.

1. Control operator announces there is 3rd party traffic to follow, be it for a single QSO or for a duration such as the rest of the afternoon.

Now you have proven and established that you are in control of your, club, or special event station.

2. The 3rd party then can use the call sign directly. However, if at a private station, the 3rd party should probably use the control operator's call sign in a 3rd party form, not in the first person.

3. All established regulatory procedures apply including the requirement to provide the call sign identification a minimum of every ten minutes.

As an individual you have now made listeners aware that your call sign will only be used in the first person by you, and any other voice is thereby suspicious. After all, someone may have turned their radio on after the 3rd party announcement and thereby missed it, but can clearly tell that the strange voice is not claiming the call sign, but rather referencing it as the control operator of the station to which he or she is using.

Any freebander with a police scanner will know if you let others use your individual call sign in the first person willy nilly without you saying a word (such as Joe Schmoe did) and they will take note as your call sign is now one they can barrow and use when they feel like going on air. It happens, and quite often more than you realize, mostly on the HF bands and IRLP.

Consider when little Jonny goes home and plays radio saying he is [Joe's call sign,] and Joe's nowhere nearby. Then a listening ham hears it and thinks, "Oh Joe is kindly letting some little fella use his station to get on the air again, it's probably legit."

They've heard it before with Joe's call sign, so why be alarmed this time?

That is simply not an intelligent thing to be identified with as an operator characteristic. Now everyone's guard is down and you have declared open season on your own call sign!

Amateur Radio is by and large a self regulated hobby, and your local ham radio neighbors can be your best friends in looking out for you and alerting you if someone is using your ham radio call sign without your knowledge, but only if you don't set a precedent to the contrary!


You should be interested in protecting your license and call sign the same as you would be your financial identity such as your SSN. But if you're not, then consider other people you put at risk. If you are on a repeater, you might expose the repeater owner, trustee, and possibly a ham radio club to liability.

If you feel it is perfectly compliant and acceptable practice to let non-licensed persons use your callsign in the first person, without you saying anything, you're probably deficient in plenty of other operating practices that will eventually catch up with you and your license. But please think about others that you might drag into the murky waters of lid operation with you and the collateral damage it may cause, possibly including a new generation of lid operators that you failed to set a good example for.